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    Atlantic City

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    Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 10:08 am

    I thought I was being clever with organizing the bids and stuff, but it seems to have led to confusion due to some unknown possibility I didn't account for.

    Autumn

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 10:19 am

    JAG asked me some questions about the mechanics. I can answer them here, but be ready for spoilers if you don't want them yet!

    Autumn

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 10:27 am

    Did I block 0, 1, or 2 kills?

    I believe you blocked one kill, JAG. Jackal blocked a kill on himself. The rest of the kills were on Mafia members I believe.


    Are there any other hidden roles?

    Well, come on, if there's a Celebrity, there has to be ...


    If brit revealed his role to anyone, would it have caused the media circus or could he have revealed it to Jackal via PM?

    Revealing his role wouldn't have caused any ruckus, though it would have likely meant he didn't meet his major victory condition (though getting lynched had the same effect, lol). The circus only took place if he was lynched. If the Mafia killed him, it would have had the reverse effect, blanking out black market services for a day.


    Can you fill me in on some of the hidden mafia-only rules? How did the conversion happen?

    Really the conversion was the only hidden mafia rule, I think. If they discovered the identity of one of the other family, either through the PI or the Hitman, they could the next night send that member an offer. If the amount of money they sent them was more than that player had, they were "bought". They were now a member of the other family but they were not informed who was in the other family, couldn't chat with them obviously. They were basically a mole, still in the old family chat but wanting the other family to win and counting as the other family. Once they were the only one left from the old family they would fully join the others. So unfortunately for Danny just as he was about to join the new family he got caught. Which was trouble for them since they'd sent him so much money.

    What did the arms dealer and Eternity money storage service allow the
    purchaser to do? (I wanted to buy that Eternity one, but I felt like I
    needed to play defense)

    The arms dealer made you either Brutal if you were Mafia or Tough if you were a villager. The investment option was just that -- you could invest an amount of money and it would disappear for a few days and come back X fold, depending on how long you invested it.

    Admin
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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 10:34 am

    Ha, I love the conversion rule.

    Autumn

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 10:36 am

    Admin wrote:Ha, I love the conversion rule.

    I thought it would make for some fun paranoia in the Mafia teams, though surprisingly that never seemed to occur to them.

    Autumn

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 10:38 am

    Biggest question of all, what were the risks to the village using the black market services?

    The risks were escalating with every successful village bid. Both the percent chance of something happening, and the consequence. The first level was having your vote controlled by a Mafia member for the day. This happened a couple times I think but the votes were runaways so didn't matter. The next level was having your vote handed to the Mafia permanently. I think this never happened. The last level was to be In the Pocket of the Mob - a Mafia member gets access to your vote, your bank account and can use you to bid for services ...

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 10:40 am

    *smacks forehead*

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 10:47 am

    So Chief Rum then probably. Bah! That's going to be tough to sort out. Plus assuming he keeps path alive, the ratio is closer than others expect. And if more people bid on black market services...

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 10:57 am

    Oh good, at least Narc's throwing that idea out there.

    Autumn

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 11:12 am

    Admin wrote:So Chief Rum then probably. Bah! That's going to be tough to sort out. Plus assuming he keeps path alive, the ratio is closer than others expect. And if more people bid on black market services...

    Well the pocketed player doesn't count as a Mafia, so it's only partial conversion. But yes, it turned out to be the perfect foil to your bidding plan--which is good to avoid a blowout because I was worried that your plan was too good! I think my mechanics were a bit flawed to allow for that. The downside of the "one bid per person" which I did to solve problems in the first game.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 11:24 am

    Doesn't count as mafia, but since the mafia has his vote, it's as good as a conversion for ratio purposes since path will never be able to support the village with his vote.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 11:30 am

    Autumn wrote:
    Admin wrote:So Chief Rum then probably. Bah! That's going to be tough to sort out. Plus assuming he keeps path alive, the ratio is closer than others expect. And if more people bid on black market services...

    Well the pocketed player doesn't count as a Mafia, so it's only partial conversion. But yes, it turned out to be the perfect foil to your bidding plan--which is good to avoid a blowout because I was worried that your plan was too good! I think my mechanics were a bit flawed to allow for that. The downside of the "one bid per person" which I did to solve problems in the first game.

    When I thought up that plan, I wondered if it would have worked even earlier in the game, but I'm not sure it would have since there were only so many services and quite a few players left. It's only now at the end where it could have been decisive.

    How do you feel about the game balance? There are a lot of moving parts obviously which makes it tough, but I feel like the village almost couldn't have played it more perfectly than we did and there's still a pretty decent chance for us to lose due to the hidden mechanics / uncertainty with the bids / scans.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 11:35 am

    Easy way to solve it in case you ever run the rule set again would be to allow no more than 2 bids per person, but I suppose then you run the risk that you get the same person buying the seer and BG together again as happened in the first game. I'll have to think about it.

    It seemed like the bet spread worked well to prevent the huge money blobs people got the first go-around (granted that's without knowing what the mob ended up with cash wise). I really liked that change.

    Autumn

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 11:45 am

    Yeah, I like the bet spread option. The money thing has had as much to do with people not bidding on things that could have netted them money though. There were a couple of big bank rolls won. And the wolves not getting any real night kills hurt them money-wise.

    I think the balance is good, which is ironic because it came veyr close to being a complete shutout. But I felt like that had more to do with A) bad luck for the wolves, B) wolves who were busy and not playing 100%, and C) some careful play by the village. You guys carefully stepped around problems like Murray's brutal, and at least at first realized not to bother scanning Britrock. And any game where the village picks a wolf to scan/kill almost every single night is going to skew things.

    I think the village is in very good shape. I was glad a whole bunch of things went in the Mafia's favor last night to keep it from being a skunking, but the village still has most of the cards. Though I'm a little surprised they're still bidding on blackmarket stuff. Well not surprised really, but I'm wondering if Path is going to make it more clear what's happening to him -- I would think he would have figured it out from my PMs.

    Autumn

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 11:47 am

    Admin wrote:Easy way to solve it in case you ever run the rule set again would be to allow no more than 2 bids per person, but I suppose then you run the risk that you get the same person buying the seer and BG together again as happened in the first game. I'll have to think about it.

    You did a great job betting, by the way.

    Yeah, being able to make lots of bids really skewed it last time when people had gobs of money. But there needs to be some of that uncertainty. Maybe allow the wolves to make more bids? Like they only have X money but can split it as many ways? I guess that's probably too powerful. Two bids might be a good middle ground.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 11:55 am

    Agree on path, re-reading his information it seems pretty obvious that the stuff happening to him is different and more extensive than what happened to Coffee and Jackal. I definitely agree with your A and B above too, I still am amazed Jackal won the NK Night 1 for $350 (and that he even bothered to bid on it).

    Also, the last line by path here still cracks me up:


    I assume this has something to do with using a black market service but someone was apparently messing with my bank account.

    Thank god my $18 is safe though.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 11:57 am

    Autumn wrote:
    Admin wrote:Easy way to solve it in case you ever run the rule set again would be to allow no more than 2 bids per person, but I suppose then you run the risk that you get the same person buying the seer and BG together again as happened in the first game. I'll have to think about it.

    You did a great job betting, by the way.

    Yeah, being able to make lots of bids really skewed it last time when people had gobs of money. But there needs to be some of that uncertainty. Maybe allow the wolves to make more bids? Like they only have X money but can split it as many ways? I guess that's probably too powerful. Two bids might be a good middle ground.

    I think I have a possible answer. You can make one bid on regular services and one bid on Black Market services.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 1:16 pm

    Admin wrote:
    Autumn wrote:
    Admin wrote:Easy way to solve it in case you ever run the rule set again would be to allow no more than 2 bids per person, but I suppose then you run the risk that you get the same person buying the seer and BG together again as happened in the first game. I'll have to think about it.

    You did a great job betting, by the way.

    Yeah, being able to make lots of bids really skewed it last time when people had gobs of money. But there needs to be some of that uncertainty. Maybe allow the wolves to make more bids? Like they only have X money but can split it as many ways? I guess that's probably too powerful. Two bids might be a good middle ground.

    I think I have a possible answer. You can make one bid on regular services and one bid on Black Market services.

    Might be too overpowered towards the mob though.

    Autumn

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 1:17 pm

    That's a good idea, JAG, and makes sort of real world sense.

    The village really went hard after black market stuff this time. The mafia meanwhile didn't bid well or aggressively for the most part.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 1:24 pm

    I think the penalties for using black market services are too harsh on the village though. Permanent loss of vote is practically a conversion when there are already 6 mobsters for the village to eliminate (though granted they're also conspiring against each other).

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 1:36 pm

    Admin wrote:
    Autumn wrote:
    Admin wrote:Easy way to solve it in case you ever run the rule set again would be to allow no more than 2 bids per person, but I suppose then you run the risk that you get the same person buying the seer and BG together again as happened in the first game. I'll have to think about it.

    You did a great job betting, by the way.

    Yeah, being able to make lots of bids really skewed it last time when people had gobs of money. But there needs to be some of that uncertainty. Maybe allow the wolves to make more bids? Like they only have X money but can split it as many ways? I guess that's probably too powerful. Two bids might be a good middle ground.

    I think I have a possible answer. You can make one bid on regular services and one bid on Black Market services.

    Here's another idea. Maybe have a certain number of bid credits allowed to be used (3? 2?) and make some of the more valuable services worth more credits. So in a single day you can bid on the seer (3 credits) or the messenger (1 credit) + BG (2 credits). I don't know if that makes it too complicated but it's a way to potentially hide who's bidding on what and prevent overpowered combos like buying the seer+BG by the same person.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 1:39 pm

    Admin wrote:I think the penalties for using black market services are too harsh on the village though. Permanent loss of vote is practically a conversion when there are already 6 mobsters for the village to eliminate (though granted they're also conspiring against each other).

    Well, given that the village used blackmarket services to basically scan what three different mobsters? I'm afraid the penalties maybe weren't harsh enough. The village has it within their power to realize who might have lost votes and therefore correct for that, whereas wining the kill not only prevents a night kill from the wolves but also services as a partial scan.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 2:47 pm

    Autumn wrote:
    Admin wrote:I think the penalties for using black market services are too harsh on the village though. Permanent loss of vote is practically a conversion when there are already 6 mobsters for the village to eliminate (though granted they're also conspiring against each other).

    Well, given that the village used blackmarket services to basically scan what three different mobsters? I'm afraid the penalties maybe weren't harsh enough. The village has it within their power to realize who might have lost votes and therefore correct for that, whereas wining the kill not only prevents a night kill from the wolves but also services as a partial scan.

    Technically one was an out and out kill of a scanned mafia, but point taken it's quite powerful to potentially turn the NK over to the village. On the other hand, there are a couple of other considerations. One is, I can't see why the mafia bid so low on that service throughout the game that the village was able to win it so frequently, especially after getting burned by Jackal D1 (the bidding in the first game showed a lot more respect for it I thought, again might have been due to real life issues). The other is, imagine if Jackal had used it on a villager N1. He would gain a bit of cash but would have hurt the villager win ratio as well as turning his vote over to the mafia (though just for a night at that point). Part of the reason it became unbalanced is because it happened to get used successfully, but that wasn't guaranteed to happen.

    It's tough though. Assuming the village wins the scan and BG, they keep clearing people and can protect the most trusted + wealthy players each night. Winning the NK is a pretty nasty blow to the mafia the later in the game it gets as more information is obtained by the village.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 3:00 pm

    Someone is fucking with my bank account. There is now like $900 in there but all of it is unaccessable. That's the only tangible thing so far and I got that message this morning.

    This is awesome by the way.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 3:07 pm

    lol, I'm glad he finally gave some details. I can't believe they're not putting it all together. Narc is pretty sharp today though.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 3:36 pm

    Agreed. But you know what they say, sharp today, dead tomorrow.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 3:39 pm

    Admin wrote:
    Autumn wrote:
    Admin wrote:I think the penalties for using black market services are too harsh on the village though. Permanent loss of vote is practically a conversion when there are already 6 mobsters for the village to eliminate (though granted they're also conspiring against each other).

    Well, given that the village used blackmarket services to basically scan what three different mobsters? I'm afraid the penalties maybe weren't harsh enough. The village has it within their power to realize who might have lost votes and therefore correct for that, whereas wining the kill not only prevents a night kill from the wolves but also services as a partial scan.

    Technically one was an out and out kill of a scanned mafia, but point taken it's quite powerful to potentially turn the NK over to the village. On the other hand, there are a couple of other considerations. One is, I can't see why the mafia bid so low on that service throughout the game that the village was able to win it so frequently, especially after getting burned by Jackal D1 (the bidding in the first game showed a lot more respect for it I thought, again might have been due to real life issues). The other is, imagine if Jackal had used it on a villager N1. He would gain a bit of cash but would have hurt the villager win ratio as well as turning his vote over to the mafia (though just for a night at that point). Part of the reason it became unbalanced is because it happened to get used successfully, but that wasn't guaranteed to happen.

    It's tough though. Assuming the village wins the scan and BG, they keep clearing people and can protect the most trusted + wealthy players each night. Winning the NK is a pretty nasty blow to the mafia the later in the game it gets as more information is obtained by the village.

    No that's true. Basically it's a game that's never really going to be balanced, I guess, that goes with the gambling/auction theme. You're right that things really went the village's way. Losing your vote for one day though is a reasonable consequence, and is the first stage. I didn't feel bad about escalating it all the way yesterday because I was in the opposite bind - with one wolf left and your bidding plan and all there were very few consequences i could give the village that would even hurt them. The mafia won their votes several times, but who cared since they were being outed by scans.

    Actually the biggest problem with the rules, I think, is that as we get to end game the village numbers really become too powerful. Having seven of them who can bid, for example, and only wolf means the wolves are A) almost never going to win and B) only going to have one "power" versus the many powers of the village. I think that's a real problem with the ruleset. The proportion of village "roles" increases as the game goes on.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 4:15 pm

    I just don't know if that's a natural consequence that should be accepted because it's happened twice with this rule set or if it's because the village out-played a semi-inactive group of wolves and got themselves in this position (it sure seemed ridiculous we at one point had 5 dead wolves vs. 2 dead villagers). More than voting history, it seems like money history is very tough for the wolves to handle. Even without the money scanner this go-around (I saw it was available one day but never purchased), it's got to be very difficult to keep track of your fake money history and sorting out your actual money.

    But you're absolutely right that the seer and BG get more powerful as more and more players are eliminated and almost overpowering with a very small amount left. However, at least this time the last wolf will be able to bid on the seer and NK which should even the odds. No matter how it ends, that twist will make for an interesting ending so I think in the end it worked out that you included it.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 5:19 pm

    Yes, both games I feel like the wolves didn't take full advantage of the bidding, whereas in each case some savvy villagers. Might just be back luck, or the fact of the matter that there's more villagers and therefore a better chance of there being some who are paying that close attention and into that kind of strategic game.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 5:21 pm

    It's not just me, right? Path's account issues should make it fairly obvious what happened, right? I know the village is going to complain after the game that they couldn't know what was going on at this point, but it seems to me it's fairly obvious, or at least the strongest possibility.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 5:29 pm

    I'm very surprised no one other than Narc has discussed it much, but I don't know that I would've made the leap to bid manipulation, just that the mob was taking over path's money. I wasn't sure what to make of the description path gave yesterday about what happened when he won his bid, but I figured with my bidding plan it didn't really matter what happened money-wise by that point in the game.

    I hope at least some folks will speak up about those that haven't given a reckoning of their past bets / bids and not let the important info from the Day 5 bidding that Narc found get lost amidst the other info out there. Looks like this will be another bad lynch but there's still a chance for tomorrow. They're going to have to realize what happened soon because path will be the only one alive who didn't put in a bid if they end up lynching DV.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by britrock88 on Thu May 02, 2013 6:33 pm

    Great discussion. I hope I have time to digest it more fully later. Smile

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by murrayyyyy on Thu May 02, 2013 7:24 pm

    Autumn wrote:Yes, both games I feel like the wolves didn't take full advantage of the bidding,

    If they ever write a book on how wolves shouldn't play I think my team was a classic example. Maybe had 15 messages between us. We were all too busy with work and it was the wrong game to play when no one had time to organize anything.

    I seriously think our first message to each other was 30 mins before the first "night kill". It didn't help that all three of us voted very late on the first day either(with DT already up for vote). Then we had no clue who was bidding on what or who they even placed bets on to at least help the group win some money. Then when we did bid on anything we got outbid by the other wolves. I think our team had one nightkill attempt the entire game. We came up with a rushed horrible strategy of holding our money so each one of us would be able to bid on a nightkill and Danny was the only one who won one.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 7:31 pm

    Yeah, murray I think nearly all the Mafia players were really busy this game, that was a huge part of it. I was disappointed Font got killed because she was one of the few who seemed to have the time to engage in the game. Unfortunately this is one of those rule sets that greatly favors those who have the time to dig into it.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Zinto on Thu May 02, 2013 7:41 pm

    Yep, day one I was so busy or I would have probably bet enough money to buy the night kill. I think things would have moved in a different direction if that had happened since Font wouldn't have been outed day one.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 9:11 pm

    I put in a bid for the hitman... Dunno if I already mentioned that.

    *smacks forehead*

    Unless he uses it on the right person. Tomorrow is the last day to win, otherwise the mafia will control the vote. I guess maybe the mafia-killing service could show up to help out so not guaranteed over, but would need a minor miracle.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 9:13 pm

    I love that you made a role for my favorite Mau fake reveal.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 9:37 pm

    It was half the reason to do a sequel ;-)

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Thu May 02, 2013 9:38 pm

    This one certainly went from a shutout to down to the wire very quickly.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Thu May 02, 2013 10:32 pm

    Assuming the mafia won both those bids, that might make things easier to figure out and let them move beyond looking at the bid info from the past couple nights...maybe.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Danny on Fri May 03, 2013 12:29 am

    So does chief now control jackals vote also?

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Danny on Fri May 03, 2013 12:31 am

    And I agree it's Murray, our wolf team was really bad this game. It's amazing I might still end up with a win. Will be my mot undeserved win ever lol

    Autumn

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Fri May 03, 2013 9:21 am

    Village lucked out there, Jackal didn't use the kill, which helped his chances, and rolled lucky. A vote loss there would have lost the game I think.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Fri May 03, 2013 9:34 am

    Unless he used it on Chief. Smile.

    It seems like they're getting closer to taking a more serious look at him which would probably let them save the game. Of all the people left, he and Coffee have done the least to hurt the LV family, so that will hopefully be worth some suspicion. I don't think they have much chance of winning the seer at this point, I'm sure CR must be majorly loaded at this point.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Fri May 03, 2013 9:47 am

    Autumn wrote:Village lucked out there, Jackal didn't use the kill, which helped his chances, and rolled lucky. A vote loss there would have lost the game I think.

    Except if Chief had 3 votes in his pocket even revealing him wouldn't have helped.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Fri May 03, 2013 10:04 am

    True. What is the tie-breaker?

    Depending on the tie-breaker, today's vote and bidding may be the last chance. So Narc and Jackal have no money, CR and path will bid on the hitman and seer, if they lynch a villager other than path, the only chance is if Mau and CW bid for the BG (and choose right on who to protect) or Cookies (and guess right on who has the NK). That assumes they bid on the proper services, they might opt to try for the seer or NK themselves.

    If they lynch path, they help themselves somewhat because then CR can't hog the the seer and NK, which gives them a chance to get a scan in.

    A Mau or CW lynch would hurt a lot because they'd have only one villager left that can bid.

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Fri May 03, 2013 10:45 am

    This game is surprisingly going similar to the Vegas game, where it seemed the mafia was getting trashed all game, and then somehow nearly squeaked it out at the end. Partly just the ruleset favors big swings in momentum. Yeah, today is hugely important. Voting Path would be their best bet if they don't figure out the truth. Chief almost didn't get an action in last night, too, which would have changed things totally.

    I feel kind of bad for the village being stumped, but I feel like the answer is right in front of them. They know Path hasn't been able to use his money. Don't they think that means something?

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    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Fri May 03, 2013 11:11 am

    I think the biggest problem, and this happens in many games of werewolf including the Vegas game, is that you forget to look at all the information that is out there and focus on what's been happening lately. If they summed up everyone's actions from the first 4-5 days, the only thing Chief has done to help the village is scan me, which at this point doesn't count for much. CW makes sense too because his actions have been more anti-Atlantic though Zinto voted him to 3 D1.

    The sad thing for me is if we lose, it won't be due to anything amazing Chief has done (other than scanning me right away, which I think was a good trust-building move), it will just be that we weren't able to sort out this mechanic and got a bit screwed with the result of brit's lynch. And that wouldn't have even been that big a deal if we had just played it normally instead of the clever plan I came up with, which ended up confusing us more and taking time away from looking at the important evidence that's out there.

    Admin
    Admin

    Posts : 282
    Join date : 2011-06-06

    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Admin on Fri May 03, 2013 11:15 am

    Specifically in the Vegas game, after tyke's reveal, we didn't pay attention to his voting history in comparison to everyone else that was left. I remember fixating on a scanned player (similar to this game again!) and other less relevant stuff.

    Autumn

    Posts : 53
    Join date : 2011-06-08

    Re: Atlantic City

    Post by Autumn on Fri May 03, 2013 12:29 pm

    Admin wrote:I think the biggest problem, and this happens in many games of werewolf including the Vegas game, is that you forget to look at all the information that is out there and focus on what's been happening lately. If they summed up everyone's actions from the first 4-5 days, the only thing Chief has done to help the village is scan me, which at this point doesn't count for much. CW makes sense too because his actions have been more anti-Atlantic though Zinto voted him to 3 D1.

    The sad thing for me is if we lose, it won't be due to anything amazing Chief has done (other than scanning me right away, which I think was a good trust-building move), it will just be that we weren't able to sort out this mechanic and got a bit screwed with the result of brit's lynch. And that wouldn't have even been that big a deal if we had just played it normally instead of the clever plan I came up with, which ended up confusing us more and taking time away from looking at the important evidence that's out there.

    yeah it was bad timing for the village for Chief to get that power just when you came up with teh bidding scheme. A day before no one would have really noticed. And having the evidence on Brit, who already was a bad lynch, and came up at just the wrong time, that day was a #@&#storm. But without that the wolves were about to have the most lopsided defeat in history. lol

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    Re: Atlantic City

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